In this interview, we speak to Luiza Fernandes and Deewanshi Vats who are presently Legal Associates at the ICRC! The ICRC’s Legal Division offers a paid traineeship for a period of one year at its headquarters in Geneva. Associates support one or more teams in the Legal Division: the Thematic Legal Advisers unit, the Advisory Service on IHL, the Arms and Conduct of Hostilities unit, the Legal Advisers to the Operations unit, the Project to update the Commentaries on the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, the Global Initiative team and the Privileges and Immunities team. Here, they assist with legal research, preparing draft reports and monitoring current developments in IHL. For more information about the Legal Associateship see here and here 

In this interview, we speak to them about their journeys into the ICRC, their reflections from the last year, what gives them hope to continue practicing international law, and the advice they have for those hoping to follow in their footsteps.

All the views presented are personal and do not reflect ICRC’s view in any way.

Adithi: Lovely to be speaking to both of you this afternoon! Before we dive in, can we speak a little about your background — what led you to the ICRC? Is this the kind of career you’d pictured for yourself early on? And on that note, how did you make your way into the legal associateship?

Luiza: For me, it was really when I started studying international law in 2019. My university had recently set up a law clinic, and I thought okay, maybe that’s my way into liking law. At the time, I should mention that I was not particularly enjoying law school. Everything felt boring and I did not have a strong liking for my subjects. At the clinic, I saw that we could study conduct in war and conduct of hostilities, and that the law had rules for that too. I found the area of law really interesting. Thereafter, I went to Belarus to compete in an IHL competition, and we won. I thought then, well, I can do this — this is really something I can build a career on. A few months after I came back, the Russia and Ukraine war had begun. I thought, this is crazy, but it’s happening, and it’s going to keep happening. If anything is going to regulate that, or even stop it, it’s IHL. That’s when I would say I decided.

Deewanshi: Like you mentioned early in the series, we learn about international law through talking to friends and through internet searches. Honestly, that’s also how it began for me. I started my Bachelor’s in Philosophy and did not directly join law school (as is the more common path in India). Though I  do come from a family of lawyers, I never wanted to commit myself to a career in law from the beginning, I wanted it to be a matter of choice and not influence. So I completed my Bachelor’s in Philosophy honours and thereafter pursued my law degree. Through various internships, I tried to reason what field of law I would want to be in. I did corporate work, and I also worked with the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative on an access to justice programme. Somehow, around the second year of my law degree, I knew I wanted to be in the humanitarian space. I still remember posting on ICRC Delhi’s page back in 2019 or 2020, asking if I could get an internship — I can actually still find that comment on one of their pages! 

I then went to do an internship with the Chief Justice of Jammu and Kashmir right after the abrogation of Article 370. That was a very crucial period. It definitely played an important role for me to go for my Master’s at the Geneva Academy to study human rights law and humanitarian law.

When I started my Master’s in 2024 at the Geneva Academy in humanitarian law, I felt that the ICRC legal associate position was an opportunity where I could bring together everything I had studied alongside experience and expertise I had gained. That’s how I got to know about the legal associate position. 

Adithi: Both of your paths have been so distinct! Deewanshi you have worked with some incredible lawyers and organisations in India doing different areas of law, which are not necessarily international law or humanitarian law aligned, while Luiza you sort of had a more predictable trajectory in, with the ICRC internship and doing some of the best moot court competitions in humanitarian law. You’ve each arrived at the same field from very different directions. For someone starting out now, trying to decide between, say one approach like Deewanshi’s— of building a broad domestic legal experience first and specialising later, versus another approach like Luiza’s, specialising early and going deep– what are reflections from your journey, and each other’s that you might offer?

Deewanshi: Of course, it is very subjective, and I can only speak from my experience thus far. As you said, I had a very unpredictable sort of path in. I knew I wanted to play with, and explore different fields of law. I also did an internship with AZB, a corporate law firm in India, and with Justice Pratibha Singh, who is an IPR specialist and had an IPR and Arbitration roster at that point in time. So, what I’d suggest to anybody starting their career in law, or starting their legal education, is to be open-minded when it comes to opportunities and ideas. If there’s a great opportunity, not just in terms of the work itself, but also because of the institutional exposure and the professional networking it offers, I think you should grab it. It shouldn’t just be about, “okay, I need to do core legal substantive work.”

For example, in my internship with the Attorney General for India and Chief Justice of Jammu and Kashmir a lot of what I did involved writing speeches and preparing for events, which has helped me now as a legal associate here. I also had a one-year stint with the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights while I was studying, where I did a lot of legal memos and published material. So, I feel like that you should keep your ideas and horizons open when it comes to taking on opportunities, as they definitely build your skills that can benefit you immensely in your future roles.

Luiza:  Yeah, I agree with Deewanshi on this. I think the soft skills you pick up from other jobs, even ones not directly related to International Humanitarian Law (IHL), or to what you eventually want to do matter anyway, because you can always frame how they’re transferable to the kind of work you’ll do later. For me, it was really a straight line to IHL, because that’s what I liked, and I didn’t particularly like anything else. But I think a lot of people are drawn to a lot of different things, and it’s good to keep an open mind about different areas of law — especially now, given the uncertainties of the job market.

For example, I feel like I’m lacking in human rights and business and human rights, which is a really interesting area and also a lucrative one. I do regret not having done more of that earlier, because now it almost feels too late. A lot of these jobs require significant experience, and I feel like the only jobs I can really apply for are either IHL roles or criminal law roles, which are fairly narrow these days. So, I do think having a broader background is better if you’re just starting out, because then you can really figure out what you like and expand your horizons.

Adithi: And if I can push on that a little further: when you think about your own profiles, what do you think really made you stand out? Is there a certain academic path, combination of languages, or type of field experience that seems to open doors at the ICRC?

Luiza: I think for me, it was a strong academic background because of publications. I wrote and published a lot on IHL, usually just on IHL and ICL. I think that was something they took into consideration. Also, the competitions — I think competing in moots is very important to show interest, and it shows that you were always keeping up with the material, because the case is always new and you learn a lot throughout the process. So, I think it was that. I would also say they look at the passion you show in your cover letter. I really do feel that showing passion matters much more than just listing “I did this, this, and that, and I have this skill.” 

Deewanshi: Adding to Luiza’s point on the cover letter, it’s definitely very important, and it’s screened through the later stages of the process too. However, you have to show how you can contribute to the organization in your cover letter. Your CV says, “yes, I have this, this, this, this,” but your cover letter must answer the question: I have all these diverse experiences, but how can I transfer these skills into the ICRC? So that’s what I’d add on the point regarding the cover letter.

Apart from that, just to give some context, I work in the Global Initiative team of the Legal Division at the ICRC, which involves a lot of stakeholder engagement and legal diplomacy, not just legal work. My previous experience as an assistant with the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights taught me a lot of organizational skills— talking to different diplomats, communications, organising and moderating Human Rights Council side events and those soft skills, as we said earlier, were transferable to this job. So, I think that’s what stood out.

Apart from that, I’d say language competencies also play an important part. Depending upon the role, someone who can speak English along with any one of the following languages- French, Spanish, Portuguese or Arabic is usually preferred. As an early-career professional, you might not have all these languages but showing that you’re open to learning them is also important. If you’ve started with French or Arabic (even at an A1 or A2 level) that helps. So, it’s not just about what languages you already have, but your interest in learning more in the years ahead.

Adithi: Absolutely! On that note, you’re both Geneva Academy alumni. Do you think that gave you a bit of a head start getting into the ICRC, being right there in Geneva? Did it help at all?

Luiza: It sure did. It really is something significant to have studied at the Geneva Academy. I think it’s because they trust the education we receive there, since it’s so IHL-focused, everything is related to IHL. Even our course on human rights, was framed as human rights in armed conflict. So, I do think that played a major role.

Also, we had very specific training in IHL. For example, the legal test we did for the associate position was essentially an IHL exam, similar to the ones set by our professor, Gaggioli. So, it’s very connected. We’re more prepared, in a way, than people who didn’t have that type of education. Of course, you can go to the ICRC without having gone to the Geneva Academy, it’s not mandatory, but I certainly feel an advantage! 

Deewanshi:  Yeah, I agree with what Luiza’s saying. But just so our readers know, we have plenty of associates who studied at Leiden, Oxford, Yale, and other universities. So, it gives you an edge, because, as Luiza said, the training we received at the Geneva Academy is very IHL-focused — but that doesn’t mean you need to show 20 hours of IHL coursework specifically from there. If you meet that requirement through another university, that opens doors for you too. So, I think everyone should be encouraged to apply if they meet the requirement, regardless of where it’s from.

Adithi: And if I can ask, was IHL something you were already thinking about when you applied for your LLM, is that what led you to choose Geneva?

Deewanshi: Yes, so I applied to Leiden and the Geneva Academy, just those two places. We did our LLM in International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Law at the Geneva Academy, which is the joint center of the Graduate Institute and the University of Geneva. There is another LLM in International Law, offered by the Graduate Institute.

I chose the Geneva Academy for its focus on IHL and IHRL particularly because of its proximity to the relevant organizations. When I finished my law degree, I knew I wanted to do something in human rights law and humanitarian law. It was there in the back of my mind. I wanted to specialise further and understand where that could take me professionally, and the Geneva Academy offered exactly that combination of academic training and proximity to the international organisations working in the field. Once I looked more closely at the opportunities in IHL and the kind of work I could pursue, I knew this was the direction I wanted to take. So, choosing Geneva was a very deliberate decision for me. 

Luiza: I was conflicted between Leiden and the Geneva Academy; those were also the only two places I applied to. I applied to Leiden for the Advanced Master’s in International Criminal Law (ICL), because I really wanted to do ICL;  still do. But then I thought, well, the Geneva Academy combines IHL and human rights together. It’s broader, and we also cover ICL. So, I figured I needed to expand my horizons a bit rather than focus purely on ICL. I also knew that if I went to Leiden, it would be much more ICL-focused, and that getting into the ICRC afterward would be harder. So that’s what I factored in. And because I really wanted to work for the ICRC, the Geneva Academy was the choice.

Adithi: Lovely. I am sure our readers who might be figuring out their master’s applications now will benefit from this! What advice would you give someone hoping to apply for this position in the next few years?

Deewanshi: I’d say they should check the ICRC website for the legal associate job description, and if it’s not posted, they can find relevant information through interviews the ICRC has published online of the past associates. It is important to understand the process. Generally, (and this can vary year to year), although it has stayed consistent so far, you submit a CV first, it gets screened, then there’s a legal test, followed by an interview. So, I’d advise really understanding how to make your CV stand out enough to pass to the second round.

You must clearly show specialised training in IHL if you want to apply for the legal associate role. If you didn’t study IHL specifically but did international relations or a general LLM, there are other opportunities too — for example, protection associate or communications associate roles. The ICRC offers different types of associate positions, and legal is just one of them.

But focusing on the legal track specifically, you need to show specialised IHL training, plus the soft skills we discussed earlier. On top of that, I’d say your previous experience shouldn’t exceed one to two years. If you’re four years into your career, for example, it might not be the ideal time to apply. And finally, you should have some language competency, or at least a genuine willingness to learn a new language, because language plays an important role in the selection of any associate at the ICRC.

Luiza:  The advice I’d give to someone applying in the next two or three years is: first, start learning French. It’s very important. It is not always mandatory, but often it is. In our year, they required B2 level. Even now, you’re asked whether you meet that requirement. So, it matters. And if you’re interested in IHL but don’t have much on your CV yet, I’d say start building it with that goal in mind — showing a strong foundation in IHL. If studying at an institution like the Geneva Academy isn’t an option, since it can be very expensive, try publishing articles or small blog posts on IHL instead. That’s more accessible. You don’t need to publish in peer-reviewed journals or produce something highly technical. Just something simple, published here and there, that shows how much you care about the subject.

And really think about why you want to work at the ICRC specifically. It’s not enough to say “I want to protect civilians,” everyone wants to protect civilians. You need to articulate why the subject matters to you specifically, understand international humanitarian law, and understand what the legal division actually does. Go to the website, look at the different units, all the information is there. Understanding the day-to-day work of an associate in the Legal Division is important too.

Deewanshi: Yes! Adding to Luiza, reading interviews really helped me. I remember reading an interview from a senior of mine from India back in 2019, and it shaped the questions I asked myself. If you’re planning to apply in the next two to three years, start reaching out to people on LinkedIn, or by email. People are generally very open to sharing their experiences and helping others! 

Adithi: That’s actually how Luiza and I connected. We were complete strangers, and it turned out to be one of the warmest conversations I’ve had. So, if I can add some advice to anyone reading this, don’t be afraid to reach out — you never know what might come of it! My next question was on the work you do. What does a typical week in the life of someone working at the associateship look like? 

Luiza: So, within the Legal Division, what we actually do varies a lot. Deewanshi, for example, works in Global Initiatives. Her work involves a lot of events, note-taking, and reports; she can explain it better than I can! One of our other associates, Mary, our colleague, who is the third associate along with us, works for Consult which involves a lot of engagement with universities and delivering IHL presentations to students. She’s now working on conduct of hostilities, doing a lot of research on naval warfare.

I work in Operations and Thematics. Thematics involves a lot of legal research, and in operations, it’s mostly answering questions that come in from the field — a lot of conflict classification and declassification work. So, it really varies a lot depending on the unit. Essentially, we’re there to support the legal advisors with whatever they need. We’re like assistants, in a sense: we do a version of everything a legal advisor does, just at a smaller scale. And beyond the Legal Division, there are other tracks too like protection or outreach (which handles social media for the ICRC). There are so many other types of roles you could pursue as well.

Deewanshi: Yeah, I think we’ve covered most of it. You apply for the legal associate position generally, and thereafter your manager decides where to place you depending on your CV and past experience.

Adithi: Would you happen to know roughly how many positions open up each year, and around what time?

Deewanshi: It’s hard to tell. Over the previous years, the associate cohort used to be a group of about twelve, sometimes seven. But this year, for the first time as far as I know, it’s come down to just three — Luiza, Mary, and myself. We also have associates sponsored externally by universities and some grants. But in terms of the core cohort hired directly by the ICRC this year, it was just the three of us.

Luiza: To add, it varies every year depending on the budget. They always aim to hire as many people as possible; the ICRC genuinely sees their associates as vital to their work. The minimum tends to be around three, but it can be more in other years. 

Adithi: Wow! Congratulations to both of you for making it into such a competitive space! International opportunities in general are incredibly hard to break into these days, so this is very inspiring. 

Deewanshi: I just wanted to add that credit really should go to the ICRC here, because early-career programmes have become quite limited in international law, in recent years, especially in the Geneva space. As we all know, Geneva is extremely expensive when it comes to lifestyle. But this is one of the early-career programmes that pay well — and beyond that, the environment itself is amazing for learning and growing. 

Adithi: And to my last question (which I ask on this series for purely selfish reasons), what gives you hope to keep doing international humanitarian law, given the current state of armed conflict (Palestine, Ukraine, Sudan, and so many other conflicts that aren’t even spoken about)?

Luiza: That’s a complicated one, because I do feel it’s becoming increasingly difficult. The situation isn’t good, I won’t pretend otherwise. But there are many actors that do respect IHL, we just don’t hear about them, because the media mostly reports violations. What keeps me going is believing that understanding leads to compliance, so I focus on helping states and armed groups genuinely grasp why IHL matters. I think dialogue in conflict zones is vital for that, because it makes me think that if things look this difficult even with the ICRC on the ground, what would it look like if it weren’t there at all?

So that’s what I’d say. I don’t have a particularly optimistic view that things will get dramatically better in a few years (I don’t think they will) but I do think we can try to make things better.

Deewanshi: Yeah, we hear a lot, everywhere, that international law in general is broken, and we see so much conflict. So, it’s a very reasonable question to ask what IHL is actually doing, and where we stand right now. It’s something that crosses everyone’s mind, not just those of us at the ICRC, but anyone working in international law more broadly.

I do feel IHL specifically is the part of the law that was meant to function especially when everything else breaks down. I read somewhere that more challenges simply mean more effort is required. Working at the ICRC makes you both cynical and optimistic at the same time — cynical, because you question more, since you know more; but also optimistic, because you see that real work is being done, in places that are almost impossible for anyone else to reach, yet the ICRC still strives to get there and work on the ground. So, I think it’s still worth holding on to those principles and working toward them.

Adithi: Absolutely! I really like what you said about dialogue and understanding leading to greater compliance, and it’s reassuring to hear that despite all of these challenges, there is still meaningful work being done on the ground and that the effort itself can make a difference! Thanks so much for joining us today.

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PC: International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) website and modified by JFIEL